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	<title>Comments on: Who Owns CPD Alerts &amp; Data?</title>
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	<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/</link>
	<description>maps, open data, housing, civil rights, nerd</description>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-171</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this post, Justin. This is an interesting situation with Nixle and I think it&#039;s important for us to understand it because I think we are going to see more of it. Permit me to offer yet another perspective.

“I wonder if the CPD legal team reviewed these [Agency Licensing terms]…”

IL FOIA prohibits govt agencies from imposing reuse restrictions on public documents. That is, if something is FOIA-able then, once released, it is in public domain, and may be used for literally any purpose whatsoever, up to &amp; including making money, which is after all the MSM model for doing FOIAs.

In fact, a govt agency isn&#039;t supposed to even ask you what you want to do with the documents you request under FOIA, except that if your purpose is commercial the agency may deny your request for waiver of copying fees.

A govt agency can use their website to honor their obligations under FOIA, but if they do they may not slap reuse restrictions on the posted data any more than they can restrict reuse of a released paper doc. So for example what Burke is doing with the Finance committee documents is flat-out wrong-headed.

BUT nothing in IL FOIA prohibits the RECIPIENT of govt documents from prohibiting reuse. For example, it is typical for a MSM outfit to claim copyright when they post or print the the results of a FOIA or a report summarizing information garnered thru FOIA.

So, what CPD did with EB &amp; Nixle demonstrates a profound understanding of IL FOIA - by   intermediating through a privileged 3rd party, a govt agency is able to give the impression of being champions of transparency, while imposing reuse restrictions, and without even admitting that the information is public/FOIA-able! If CPD itself had offered alerts directly from their own website, they would have helped lay the groundwork for a claim that they have to offer them to everyone without reuse restriction. It&#039;s really quite clever what they are doing. We should expect more of these privileged 3rd party deals as we ratchet up pressure for transparency.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this post, Justin. This is an interesting situation with Nixle and I think it&#8217;s important for us to understand it because I think we are going to see more of it. Permit me to offer yet another perspective.</p>
<p>“I wonder if the CPD legal team reviewed these [Agency Licensing terms]…”</p>
<p>IL FOIA prohibits govt agencies from imposing reuse restrictions on public documents. That is, if something is FOIA-able then, once released, it is in public domain, and may be used for literally any purpose whatsoever, up to &amp; including making money, which is after all the MSM model for doing FOIAs.</p>
<p>In fact, a govt agency isn&#8217;t supposed to even ask you what you want to do with the documents you request under FOIA, except that if your purpose is commercial the agency may deny your request for waiver of copying fees.</p>
<p>A govt agency can use their website to honor their obligations under FOIA, but if they do they may not slap reuse restrictions on the posted data any more than they can restrict reuse of a released paper doc. So for example what Burke is doing with the Finance committee documents is flat-out wrong-headed.</p>
<p>BUT nothing in IL FOIA prohibits the RECIPIENT of govt documents from prohibiting reuse. For example, it is typical for a MSM outfit to claim copyright when they post or print the the results of a FOIA or a report summarizing information garnered thru FOIA.</p>
<p>So, what CPD did with EB &amp; Nixle demonstrates a profound understanding of IL FOIA &#8211; by   intermediating through a privileged 3rd party, a govt agency is able to give the impression of being champions of transparency, while imposing reuse restrictions, and without even admitting that the information is public/FOIA-able! If CPD itself had offered alerts directly from their own website, they would have helped lay the groundwork for a claim that they have to offer them to everyone without reuse restriction. It&#8217;s really quite clever what they are doing. We should expect more of these privileged 3rd party deals as we ratchet up pressure for transparency.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-170</guid>
		<description>While I beleive a FOIA request might help as a teaching moment for CPD, encouraging CPD to think about your lead question, who&#039;s data is it anyway? but understand FOIA can&#039;t really help someone without an agreement with CPD to build an EB or Nixle beater. Of course, a govt agency allowing for a 3rd party website to clobber their own in terms of usability is a defining characteristic of truly open gov data. Because the FOIA law in IL has that built-in delay of one week, you can&#039;t FOIA &quot;real-time&quot; data, you can&#039;t do a &quot;standing&quot; FOIA, and you can&#039;t use IL FOIA to demand a custom data feed, even one that someone else is getting. Best you might be able to do is maybe get CPD to give you what they gave Nixle last week, not particulalry useful. IL FOIA might help illucidate the issues but it can&#039;t be used to force CPD to open this. CPD needs to embrace accountability to the extent of empowering 3rd parties to present performance measures, this is very hard for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I beleive a FOIA request might help as a teaching moment for CPD, encouraging CPD to think about your lead question, who&#8217;s data is it anyway? but understand FOIA can&#8217;t really help someone without an agreement with CPD to build an EB or Nixle beater. Of course, a govt agency allowing for a 3rd party website to clobber their own in terms of usability is a defining characteristic of truly open gov data. Because the FOIA law in IL has that built-in delay of one week, you can&#8217;t FOIA &#8220;real-time&#8221; data, you can&#8217;t do a &#8220;standing&#8221; FOIA, and you can&#8217;t use IL FOIA to demand a custom data feed, even one that someone else is getting. Best you might be able to do is maybe get CPD to give you what they gave Nixle last week, not particulalry useful. IL FOIA might help illucidate the issues but it can&#8217;t be used to force CPD to open this. CPD needs to embrace accountability to the extent of empowering 3rd parties to present performance measures, this is very hard for them.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-169</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-169</guid>
		<description>&quot;Looking forward to the details showing up on www.citypayments.org.&quot;
The Daley administration has a nasty track record of paying big bucks for hi-falutin solutions to what are these days very simple technical problem.

&quot;...the Agency Licensing terms are clear.&quot; I read Nixle&#039;s terms to prohibit reuse of the data when scraped from Nixle&#039;s website, but not necessarily to claim an an exclusive right to the underlying CPD alert data. In other words,  Nixle&#039;s terms tell any clever open gov oriented users of Nixle &quot;go get yer own data from CPD, good luck with that, chump.&quot; 

 &quot;I wonder if the CPD legal team reviewed these [Agency Licensing terms]...&quot;
I&#039;m sure they did and I beleive CPD deliberately shopped for a diseemination partner who would maintain a strangle hold on reuse, just like they did with EB. CPD wants talking points about hi tech &amp; openness but they don&#039;t want to lose control.

CPD  fears Mon AM QB-ing of their resource allocation decisions, and so does not want civilians to slice &amp; dice crime stats, for example, comparing &amp; contrasting areas, districts, and beats and years, quarters, and months.

&quot;I ... would love to see how they respond to a FOIA request for all alerts sent to Nixle.com.&quot;
At first blush things like EB &amp; Nixle give the impression openness w.r.t. CPD is a solved problem, let&#039;s move on. But we have a lot of work do to even with CPD. A FOIA such as you mentioned would serve to encourage CPD to further tackle their open data policies, and in particular challenge their misguided attempts to control reuse.  In general if a gov agencies gives to one they have to give to all. But again FOIA does not come into play until someone dashes off a letter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Looking forward to the details showing up on <a href="http://www.citypayments.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.citypayments.org</a>.&#8221;<br />
The Daley administration has a nasty track record of paying big bucks for hi-falutin solutions to what are these days very simple technical problem.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;the Agency Licensing terms are clear.&#8221; I read Nixle&#8217;s terms to prohibit reuse of the data when scraped from Nixle&#8217;s website, but not necessarily to claim an an exclusive right to the underlying CPD alert data. In other words,  Nixle&#8217;s terms tell any clever open gov oriented users of Nixle &#8220;go get yer own data from CPD, good luck with that, chump.&#8221; </p>
<p> &#8220;I wonder if the CPD legal team reviewed these [Agency Licensing terms]&#8230;&#8221;<br />
I&#8217;m sure they did and I beleive CPD deliberately shopped for a diseemination partner who would maintain a strangle hold on reuse, just like they did with EB. CPD wants talking points about hi tech &amp; openness but they don&#8217;t want to lose control.</p>
<p>CPD  fears Mon AM QB-ing of their resource allocation decisions, and so does not want civilians to slice &amp; dice crime stats, for example, comparing &amp; contrasting areas, districts, and beats and years, quarters, and months.</p>
<p>&#8220;I &#8230; would love to see how they respond to a FOIA request for all alerts sent to Nixle.com.&#8221;<br />
At first blush things like EB &amp; Nixle give the impression openness w.r.t. CPD is a solved problem, let&#8217;s move on. But we have a lot of work do to even with CPD. A FOIA such as you mentioned would serve to encourage CPD to further tackle their open data policies, and in particular challenge their misguided attempts to control reuse.  In general if a gov agencies gives to one they have to give to all. But again FOIA does not come into play until someone dashes off a letter.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-168</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-168</guid>
		<description>cop 2,0:
I&#039;m unclear what is inaccurate about the &#039;allegations&#039; that are made in the post; where the information is stored on a server doesn&#039;t change their claim of copyright over public information. The first sentence of your comment is unclear; do you know if the CPD or Nixle.com actually creates the text of the alerts? In all of the promo materials that I watched for Nixle, it seems clear that they are a message / alert conduit and not in the biz of creating the alerts from raw crime stats. 
&lt;br&gt;
Hugh:
I hope that you&#039;re right, but the Agency Licensing terms are clear. I wonder if the CPD legal team reviewed these for their compliance with the new FOIA laws and would love to see how they respond to a FOIA request for all alerts sent to Nixle.com.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cop 2,0:<br />
I&#8217;m unclear what is inaccurate about the &#8216;allegations&#8217; that are made in the post; where the information is stored on a server doesn&#8217;t change their claim of copyright over public information. The first sentence of your comment is unclear; do you know if the CPD or Nixle.com actually creates the text of the alerts? In all of the promo materials that I watched for Nixle, it seems clear that they are a message / alert conduit and not in the biz of creating the alerts from raw crime stats.<br />
<br />
Hugh:<br />
I hope that you&#8217;re right, but the Agency Licensing terms are clear. I wonder if the CPD legal team reviewed these for their compliance with the new FOIA laws and would love to see how they respond to a FOIA request for all alerts sent to Nixle.com.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-167</guid>
		<description>&quot;...their [Nixle&#039;s] assertion of copyright over the text of the messages issued through their site is clear&quot;
Thanks for rooting out Nixle&#039;s IP claim. Yes, I agree it is a clear claim, but let&#039;s not take it too seriously - a copyright claim is just a claim. A lot of gov types on the gov side of open gov data are confused about the role of copyright w.r.t. public data. For example, Alderman Ed Burke claims copyright to the agendas and &quot;minutes&quot; of his Finance committee on their website.
http://www.committeeonfinance.org/legal.asp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;their [Nixle's] assertion of copyright over the text of the messages issued through their site is clear&#8221;<br />
Thanks for rooting out Nixle&#8217;s IP claim. Yes, I agree it is a clear claim, but let&#8217;s not take it too seriously &#8211; a copyright claim is just a claim. A lot of gov types on the gov side of open gov data are confused about the role of copyright w.r.t. public data. For example, Alderman Ed Burke claims copyright to the agendas and &#8220;minutes&#8221; of his Finance committee on their website.<br />
<a href="http://www.committeeonfinance.org/legal.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.committeeonfinance.org/legal.asp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-166</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-166</guid>
		<description>&quot;I wonder what AG Madigan will think of this policy in light of her recent FOIA work.&quot;
The openness of CPD data is not a FOIA issue until some ambitious young person FOIAs CPD &quot;pls give me what you gave EB&quot; or &quot;pls give me what you gave Nixle&quot; and are denied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I wonder what AG Madigan will think of this policy in light of her recent FOIA work.&#8221;<br />
The openness of CPD data is not a FOIA issue until some ambitious young person FOIAs CPD &#8220;pls give me what you gave EB&#8221; or &#8220;pls give me what you gave Nixle&#8221; and are denied.</p>
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		<title>By: Hugh</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-165</link>
		<dc:creator>Hugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-165</guid>
		<description>&quot;What EB gets is all available somewhere else online (albeit mostly in highly inconvenient places and forms).&quot;

EB&#039;s roots are screen scraping as chicagocrime.org, but u years they have depended on a custom feed from CPD that is not available to anyone else.

&quot;EveryBlock isn’t a government agency nor their delegate.&quot;

Neither EB and Nixle are govt agencies, but both are delegate agency to the extent they operate under agreement with CPD to provide data dissemination services, and both agreements include severe reuse restrictions. EB &amp; Nixle are not so different as you may think and CPD data is not so open as you may think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What EB gets is all available somewhere else online (albeit mostly in highly inconvenient places and forms).&#8221;</p>
<p>EB&#8217;s roots are screen scraping as chicagocrime.org, but u years they have depended on a custom feed from CPD that is not available to anyone else.</p>
<p>&#8220;EveryBlock isn’t a government agency nor their delegate.&#8221;</p>
<p>Neither EB and Nixle are govt agencies, but both are delegate agency to the extent they operate under agreement with CPD to provide data dissemination services, and both agreements include severe reuse restrictions. EB &amp; Nixle are not so different as you may think and CPD data is not so open as you may think.</p>
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		<title>By: cop 2,0</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-164</link>
		<dc:creator>cop 2,0</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 05:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-164</guid>
		<description>i think guys you should know that the data that&#039;s input it in to nixle.com its own by the agency and Nixle LLC. how ever all of nixles servers they are located with in USA federal government  facility with an organization called NLETS.org and you should do your homework a little better check things out before making those inaccurate allegation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think guys you should know that the data that&#8217;s input it in to nixle.com its own by the agency and Nixle LLC. how ever all of nixles servers they are located with in USA federal government  facility with an organization called NLETS.org and you should do your homework a little better check things out before making those inaccurate allegation</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-163</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-163</guid>
		<description>made it to gapersblock.com: http://gapersblock.com/merge/archives/2010/02/02/cant-copyright-whats-free/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>made it to gapersblock.com: <a href="http://gapersblock.com/merge/archives/2010/02/02/cant-copyright-whats-free/" rel="nofollow">http://gapersblock.com/merge/archives/2010/02/02/cant-copyright-whats-free/</a></p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmassa.com/2010/02/who-owns-cpd-alerts-data/comment-page-1/#comment-162</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.justinmassa.com/?p=358#comment-162</guid>
		<description>Nixle.com&#039;s CEO: http://www.craigmitnick.com/video/reel.html
Nixle.com infommercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgT2gWJSRQI&amp;feature=youtube_gdata</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nixle.com&#8217;s CEO: <a href="http://www.craigmitnick.com/video/reel.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.craigmitnick.com/video/reel.html</a><br />
Nixle.com infommercial: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgT2gWJSRQI&#038;feature=youtube_gdata" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgT2gWJSRQI&#038;feature=youtube_gdata</a></p>
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